1 00:00:14,970 --> 00:00:12,240 happened to be fortunate to be at the in 2 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:14,980 the in the launch facility at that time 3 00:00:22,019 --> 00:00:18,490 as I had been for all the the the Apollo 4 00:00:24,660 --> 00:00:22,029 of launches up at that time the the 5 00:00:27,090 --> 00:00:24,670 interest of course in the from the press 6 00:00:30,090 --> 00:00:27,100 and a lot of outside people who look at 7 00:00:33,210 --> 00:00:30,100 that is a little different than the 8 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:33,220 there may be the other launches increase 9 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:35,050 the intensity and the emphasis and 10 00:00:38,580 --> 00:00:36,850 interests I think in that in that 11 00:00:41,850 --> 00:00:38,590 particular launch you have to recognize 12 00:00:43,469 --> 00:00:41,860 that them at that time we launched that 13 00:00:46,860 --> 00:00:43,479 particular one we knew was going to the 14 00:00:49,530 --> 00:00:46,870 moon that was a big big flight but the 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:49,540 the previous flights were from a launch 16 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:51,610 operation standpoint which is what the 17 00:00:56,250 --> 00:00:54,250 what the business we were in and the and 18 00:00:59,219 --> 00:00:56,260 and specifically the Marshall Space 19 00:01:01,710 --> 00:00:59,229 Flight Center the the launch activity 20 00:01:05,730 --> 00:01:01,720 from the first of the of the Saturn 21 00:01:08,550 --> 00:01:05,740 fives was pretty much the same that day 22 00:01:10,469 --> 00:01:08,560 as it was for the we was for the lunar 23 00:01:12,090 --> 00:01:10,479 landing it was for the first one you 24 00:01:14,010 --> 00:01:12,100 you're obviously emphasize getting off 25 00:01:16,590 --> 00:01:14,020 the pad in there and getting yourself 26 00:01:17,130 --> 00:01:16,600 into orbit the upper stages you watch on 27 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:17,140 TV 28 00:01:21,510 --> 00:01:18,610 there's on the second and third stage 29 00:01:24,630 --> 00:01:21,520 and that and two into separation but 30 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:24,640 from a launch operation standpoint from 31 00:01:28,350 --> 00:01:26,410 a launch vehicle so you didn't it wasn't 32 00:01:30,090 --> 00:01:28,360 any different than than the first one 33 00:01:31,620 --> 00:01:30,100 for archival purposes so than the fact 34 00:01:35,220 --> 00:01:31,630 that the mission was different we had 35 00:01:36,810 --> 00:01:35,230 gone through a series of development 36 00:01:40,670 --> 00:01:36,820 flights if you will getting at that 37 00:01:44,070 --> 00:01:40,680 point one of the the previous like this 38 00:01:45,690 --> 00:01:44,080 si8 st eight was the eighth of the 39 00:01:47,670 --> 00:01:45,700 Apollo's launches them that went 40 00:01:50,580 --> 00:01:47,680 actually a circumvented the moon that 41 00:01:52,710 --> 00:01:50,590 was that was very very significant to a 42 00:01:54,990 --> 00:01:52,720 lot of people who had never never seen 43 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:55,000 men get outside of a low Earth orbit 44 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:56,530 like this to actually go up and go 45 00:01:59,790 --> 00:01:57,850 around the moon so that was a very 46 00:02:01,530 --> 00:01:59,800 significant to another significant 47 00:02:04,260 --> 00:02:01,540 flight before that was the next one 48 00:02:06,990 --> 00:02:04,270 where is actually a circle the moon and 49 00:02:09,779 --> 00:02:07,000 and transferred from the Apollo capsule 50 00:02:11,850 --> 00:02:09,789 into the limb my to before it didn't 51 00:02:16,020 --> 00:02:11,860 actually go down the surface but the 52 00:02:17,910 --> 00:02:16,030 build up of this was was wasn't didn't 53 00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:17,920 wasn't routine exactly but the build up 54 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:19,360 did in fact from a launch operation 55 00:02:24,309 --> 00:02:21,890 standpoint was like another 56 00:02:25,450 --> 00:02:24,319 if you will recognize in significance 57 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:25,460 what was going to happen a few days 58 00:02:30,580 --> 00:02:28,130 later when they when they when they the 59 00:02:32,470 --> 00:02:30,590 lunar module was to sit down on the moon 60 00:02:37,540 --> 00:02:32,480 and that was course was was most 61 00:02:39,670 --> 00:02:37,550 important but I is from a different what 62 00:02:41,500 --> 00:02:39,680 we did differently in the forest launch 63 00:02:42,130 --> 00:02:41,510 preparation there was not that much 64 00:02:44,410 --> 00:02:42,140 difference 65 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:44,420 the you had to go through the same 66 00:02:49,420 --> 00:02:46,490 sequence you had to look at the same red 67 00:02:53,380 --> 00:02:49,430 lines you had the same same concerns but 68 00:02:55,390 --> 00:02:53,390 it clearly after the launch the the 69 00:02:59,350 --> 00:02:55,400 press made it a little different because 70 00:03:01,449 --> 00:02:59,360 there were no interviews and TVs and 71 00:03:02,710 --> 00:03:01,459 everybody was in being some similar kind 72 00:03:04,780 --> 00:03:02,720 of question what's your thoughts about 73 00:03:07,750 --> 00:03:04,790 the day how do you feel about this and 74 00:03:08,830 --> 00:03:07,760 and I don't know whether everyone was 75 00:03:10,690 --> 00:03:08,840 like me but I hadn't really thought 76 00:03:17,770 --> 00:03:10,700 about thinking that much different about 77 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:20,650 well the it seemed to be the norm at 78 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:23,690 that time the difference between then 79 00:03:29,860 --> 00:03:27,770 and today is that we had one one focus a 80 00:03:32,050 --> 00:03:29,870 one one real goal and it was established 81 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:32,060 by President Kennedy as you know to get 82 00:03:36,670 --> 00:03:34,010 him out on the moon and return safely to 83 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:36,680 earth within a decade and and that was 84 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:39,710 NASA's primary mission it was everybody 85 00:03:45,670 --> 00:03:42,170 in the in the system understood that 86 00:03:48,460 --> 00:03:45,680 everybody worked to accomplishing they 87 00:03:50,350 --> 00:03:48,470 in order to meet the time you had to to 88 00:03:52,090 --> 00:03:50,360 have a well laid out plan where things 89 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:52,100 fit together you had to be able to 90 00:03:56,140 --> 00:03:54,650 expect the unexpected and be able to 91 00:03:58,060 --> 00:03:56,150 adjust to it and we did have some money 92 00:03:59,500 --> 00:03:58,070 we had some problems in there and in 93 00:04:02,710 --> 00:03:59,510 launches we had some problems with the 94 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:02,720 Gemini yeah a very significant one that 95 00:04:08,380 --> 00:04:05,690 got corrected right away when the one of 96 00:04:10,780 --> 00:04:08,390 the first EVs and environmental control 97 00:04:14,290 --> 00:04:10,790 system wasn't such that it was it was 98 00:04:15,790 --> 00:04:14,300 properly conditioned a many perspiration 99 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:15,800 got in his eyes and that's where those 100 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:17,570 kind of things you had to had to expect 101 00:04:23,890 --> 00:04:20,930 but at the same time you you didn't have 102 00:04:25,450 --> 00:04:23,900 to be be told that you got a problem you 103 00:04:26,470 --> 00:04:25,460 have to correct it people started 104 00:04:27,940 --> 00:04:26,480 working on the correcting a problem 105 00:04:29,530 --> 00:04:27,950 right away whether it was a launch 106 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:29,540 vehicle problem we had some engine 107 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:32,090 problems in the in the in the early days 108 00:04:37,450 --> 00:04:35,090 we we had good instrumentation we 109 00:04:39,430 --> 00:04:37,460 analyzed the problem and people hit the 110 00:04:41,020 --> 00:04:39,440 ground running the objective was to be 111 00:04:43,810 --> 00:04:41,030 able to solve that problem and get home 112 00:04:45,190 --> 00:04:43,820 with it and that was the norm so the one 113 00:04:47,409 --> 00:04:45,200 of the best things I think it happened 114 00:04:49,540 --> 00:04:47,419 to in within the Apollo and there was 115 00:04:51,670 --> 00:04:49,550 first off there was a plan that got us 116 00:04:53,290 --> 00:04:51,680 from one one stage to the other you 117 00:04:57,610 --> 00:04:53,300 learned something on every flight you 118 00:04:59,170 --> 00:04:57,620 you minimize duplication of effort so 119 00:05:01,840 --> 00:04:59,180 you focused on those things that you 120 00:05:04,750 --> 00:05:01,850 needed to to accomplish before you went 121 00:05:07,090 --> 00:05:04,760 to the to the next next step and as such 122 00:05:08,590 --> 00:05:07,100 when you when you recognized you didn't 123 00:05:10,330 --> 00:05:08,600 accomplish that then you had to make 124 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:10,340 adjustments and that the planning for 125 00:05:16,690 --> 00:05:13,130 that was extremely well done and the the 126 00:05:19,690 --> 00:05:16,700 sense of responsibility of every 127 00:05:21,370 --> 00:05:19,700 individual everybody had a job to do 128 00:05:22,719 --> 00:05:21,380 they didn't have to beat oh you didn't 129 00:05:24,280 --> 00:05:22,729 have to look for a procedure he didn't 130 00:05:25,630 --> 00:05:24,290 have a procedure in those days I was in 131 00:05:27,909 --> 00:05:25,640 the early part of the day she didn't 132 00:05:30,570 --> 00:05:27,919 have a process or procedure you did what 133 00:05:31,980 --> 00:05:30,580 you had to do to solve the problem you 134 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:31,990 you you brought that to the attention 135 00:05:36,990 --> 00:05:33,970 the right people from a decision-making 136 00:05:39,869 --> 00:05:37,000 standpoint there was no lack of of 137 00:05:42,570 --> 00:05:39,879 empowerment and and and cousin people to 138 00:05:45,209 --> 00:05:42,580 to do their job yet the the organization 139 00:05:47,129 --> 00:05:45,219 was such at you you knew when to bring a 140 00:05:49,409 --> 00:05:47,139 problem to the next highest level had to 141 00:05:50,939 --> 00:05:49,419 get got dealt with so it seemed to be 142 00:05:52,290 --> 00:05:50,949 the norm its approach there wasn't 143 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:52,300 anything unusual it's just that's just 144 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:53,650 the way we work we had an objective 145 00:05:59,850 --> 00:05:56,530 everybody had the same objective and and 146 00:06:02,429 --> 00:05:59,860 and as such we we focused on that 147 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:02,439 attention that way today it would be a 148 00:06:08,610 --> 00:06:04,330 little different we would probably take 149 00:06:10,110 --> 00:06:08,620 longer between a an anomaly if we had an 150 00:06:12,959 --> 00:06:10,120 inflated nominee we probably take longer 151 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:12,969 to with investigating teams and outside 152 00:06:19,529 --> 00:06:16,690 reviewers and and and and understand and 153 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:19,539 analyze the problem before we went went 154 00:06:24,269 --> 00:06:21,370 forward with it with with corrective 155 00:06:26,700 --> 00:06:24,279 action so so you it would take longer 156 00:06:28,619 --> 00:06:26,710 today but then in those days you you had 157 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:28,629 the right people you had those people on 158 00:06:31,559 --> 00:06:29,770 the programs one of the things about 159 00:06:34,619 --> 00:06:31,569 NASA at that time when NASA of course 160 00:06:37,170 --> 00:06:34,629 got established in 1958 and then we 161 00:06:39,899 --> 00:06:37,180 became part of NASA with Marshall in 162 00:06:44,430 --> 00:06:39,909 1960 that that they brought together 163 00:06:46,439 --> 00:06:44,440 NASA that some of the best best talent 164 00:06:49,490 --> 00:06:46,449 in the world and that we were with with 165 00:06:52,980 --> 00:06:49,500 the the NACA centers and they and other 166 00:06:54,930 --> 00:06:52,990 organizations that took from the Army 167 00:06:56,730 --> 00:06:54,940 the Marshall split was game became the 168 00:06:58,680 --> 00:06:56,740 Marshall Space Flight Center we had to 169 00:06:59,969 --> 00:06:58,690 we had the the very best talent in the 170 00:07:02,040 --> 00:06:59,979 world we had the knowledge all the 171 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:02,050 knowledge that was really needed to be 172 00:07:08,010 --> 00:07:05,050 able to accomplish them a lunar landing 173 00:07:09,899 --> 00:07:08,020 in return was focused within the agency 174 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:09,909 and that's that that was that was one 175 00:07:14,279 --> 00:07:11,650 benefit was recognized that that 176 00:07:15,779 --> 00:07:14,289 capability existed not one among 177 00:07:17,159 --> 00:07:15,789 ourselves but on the outside the 178 00:07:19,439 --> 00:07:17,169 Congress recognized that the 179 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:19,449 administration recognized that industry 180 00:07:22,950 --> 00:07:21,250 recognized they're there they put their 181 00:07:24,809 --> 00:07:22,960 best people on it so the combination of 182 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:24,819 industry and government you had the best 183 00:07:30,089 --> 00:07:27,849 best available talent in the world to do 184 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:30,099 that and that's a and we focused on the 185 00:07:43,900 --> 00:07:41,110 in 1965 i was in i moved to florida 186 00:07:45,610 --> 00:07:43,910 representing the the saturn program 187 00:07:47,740 --> 00:07:45,620 manager be able to work for Marshall 188 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:47,750 when I was stationed at in Florida so I 189 00:07:53,230 --> 00:07:50,050 got the benefit of of working through 190 00:07:55,630 --> 00:07:53,240 all the the Saturn launches and all the 191 00:07:59,920 --> 00:07:55,640 the pre-launch is up to that time on the 192 00:08:01,810 --> 00:07:59,930 night of the of that the actual sip when 193 00:08:04,690 --> 00:08:01,820 Armstrong set foot on the moment I was 194 00:08:06,430 --> 00:08:04,700 lived in Titusville near the Cape and I 195 00:08:08,250 --> 00:08:06,440 was at home and I watched it on TV and 196 00:08:11,650 --> 00:08:08,260 like a lot of other people so that was 197 00:08:15,430 --> 00:08:11,660 that that was it was something I think 198 00:08:16,930 --> 00:08:15,440 that nobody in it had anything to do 199 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:16,940 with space or knew anything about what 200 00:08:22,090 --> 00:08:19,250 was going on maybe around the country 201 00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:22,100 but at least in the in Brevard counter 202 00:08:27,070 --> 00:08:24,710 in Florida who who who was interested 203 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:27,080 and knew about what was going on I think 204 00:08:32,980 --> 00:08:29,330 everybody was watching that that 205 00:08:36,100 --> 00:08:32,990 historic moment the if your spectator 206 00:08:38,950 --> 00:08:36,110 and I've never been as a spectator to 207 00:08:40,420 --> 00:08:38,960 launch so I'm not sure how how that that 208 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:40,430 works I've always even if I've been they 209 00:08:44,710 --> 00:08:43,010 have always been been in the in the 210 00:08:47,950 --> 00:08:44,720 launch facility associated with the 211 00:08:49,810 --> 00:08:47,960 launch activity there's a certain amount 212 00:08:52,690 --> 00:08:49,820 of discipline that you have to have and 213 00:08:54,790 --> 00:08:52,700 and and perform a countdown that 214 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:54,800 discipline was the same that day as any 215 00:08:59,980 --> 00:08:57,530 other day up to the time we had we had 216 00:09:01,680 --> 00:08:59,990 lifted off and and gone through you know 217 00:09:03,610 --> 00:09:01,690 when you recognize at your first stage 218 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:03,620 successful in the second stage and 219 00:09:08,950 --> 00:09:05,930 you're monitoring us on telemetry and TV 220 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:08,960 and the third stage is successful that 221 00:09:13,570 --> 00:09:10,970 says that the the launch vehicle has 222 00:09:17,290 --> 00:09:13,580 done most of its job at least to get the 223 00:09:20,110 --> 00:09:17,300 the the third stage and the and they the 224 00:09:22,390 --> 00:09:20,120 Apollo capsule and lunar module into 225 00:09:25,540 --> 00:09:22,400 orbit that that's the time for 226 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:25,550 celebration and and that's the time that 227 00:09:32,860 --> 00:09:28,210 the the launch facility or the launch 228 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:32,870 activity is is in pretty well focused in 229 00:09:35,860 --> 00:09:34,130 there was at that time into Houston 230 00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:35,870 because it becomes a flight operation so 231 00:09:40,510 --> 00:09:38,510 you can relax to the point that that 232 00:09:41,860 --> 00:09:40,520 you're still concerned about how the the 233 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:41,870 RET the other stages are going to work 234 00:09:45,900 --> 00:09:43,970 but then there's there's a lot of 235 00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:45,910 jubilation obviously and the 236 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:48,160 and then you start recognizing you 237 00:09:52,830 --> 00:09:50,170 become more like a spectator as opposed 238 00:09:55,590 --> 00:09:52,840 to a part of the launch operation it's a 239 00:09:57,450 --> 00:09:55,600 discipline in the system where where you 240 00:09:58,860 --> 00:09:57,460 don't you're not talking about this as 241 00:10:00,840 --> 00:09:58,870 being a different launcher you're 242 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:00,850 following procedures you're you've got 243 00:10:04,740 --> 00:10:03,130 to you've got a job to do it's only 244 00:10:07,290 --> 00:10:04,750 after that point after you've got into 245 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:07,300 orbit that that there's some relaxation 246 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:10,930 and people are able to to talk about the 247 00:10:14,670 --> 00:10:12,970 thing then you become more like a an 248 00:10:19,170 --> 00:10:14,680 individual who came just to watch the 249 00:10:23,430 --> 00:10:21,630 once you lift off and when going through 250 00:10:25,980 --> 00:10:23,440 the the preparation that the engines 251 00:10:28,470 --> 00:10:25,990 fire and you clear the tower you're not 252 00:10:31,769 --> 00:10:28,480 a hick a lot you can do and so it was on 253 00:10:34,890 --> 00:10:31,779 its way the we were listening to the 254 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:34,900 communications and and had not the think 255 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:38,410 as Conrad was a was a commander that had 256 00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:40,890 he not been perceptive enough 257 00:10:44,460 --> 00:10:42,880 immediately and I'm not sure exactly 258 00:10:46,650 --> 00:10:44,470 what treated him to do this but he 259 00:10:48,540 --> 00:10:46,660 recognized that there there had been a 260 00:10:52,380 --> 00:10:48,550 lightning strike and he reported that 261 00:10:55,590 --> 00:10:52,390 that met then brought a different kind 262 00:10:56,850 --> 00:10:55,600 of a attention to to the hacen face feel 263 00:10:59,160 --> 00:10:56,860 not a lot you can do about it you're 264 00:11:00,660 --> 00:10:59,170 gonna go ahead and go through the the 265 00:11:03,030 --> 00:11:00,670 second and third stage it's what we were 266 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:03,040 we're concerned about is the effect that 267 00:11:07,410 --> 00:11:05,650 that that lightning may have had on was 268 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:07,420 a scrambling memories of resetting 269 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:10,570 computers are are the avionics if you 270 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:13,330 will in the in the third states so what 271 00:11:17,790 --> 00:11:14,890 we were able to do on the ground again 272 00:11:20,190 --> 00:11:17,800 with telemetry was quickly well go 273 00:11:23,430 --> 00:11:20,200 through an assessment to verify that 274 00:11:26,370 --> 00:11:23,440 nothing and nothing had been disrupted 275 00:11:29,579 --> 00:11:26,380 with that so it was again and though to 276 00:11:32,490 --> 00:11:29,589 do that was one the early recognition of 277 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:32,500 what happened and and then because of 278 00:11:37,860 --> 00:11:35,290 that a knowledge of what was of the 279 00:11:39,570 --> 00:11:37,870 system and the the telemetry feedback 280 00:11:42,180 --> 00:11:39,580 which we had plenty of on on those 281 00:11:43,949 --> 00:11:42,190 missions it was easy for the engineers 282 00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:43,959 to be able to to make that assessment 283 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:46,570 and come to to about free pretty easy 284 00:11:56,300 --> 00:11:54,200 he was at all the launches always press 285 00:11:59,060 --> 00:11:56,310 conferences there was always reviews of 286 00:12:01,580 --> 00:11:59,070 the of the readiness of the the launch 287 00:12:04,340 --> 00:12:01,590 vehicle he was he was in the blockhouse 288 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:04,350 and in and at every launch and and 289 00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:06,810 that's where I was so so I had contact 290 00:12:12,020 --> 00:12:09,570 with him from a from an Operations 291 00:12:14,390 --> 00:12:12,030 standpoint I didn't report directly to 292 00:12:16,130 --> 00:12:14,400 him I reported to the to the program 293 00:12:20,210 --> 00:12:16,140 manager Saturn program manager who did 294 00:12:24,020 --> 00:12:20,220 impact report directly to him in in 1969 295 00:12:26,450 --> 00:12:24,030 I did when I move back to Huntsville 296 00:12:29,540 --> 00:12:26,460 I was the technical assistant to von 297 00:12:33,260 --> 00:12:29,550 Braun's deputy dr. hard Ries and as such 298 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:33,270 I was in the in the suite the night 299 00:12:39,650 --> 00:12:36,930 floor suite and and it became a lot more 300 00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:39,660 exposed to him until he is in 1970 when 301 00:12:47,690 --> 00:12:42,240 he went to went to Washington and that 302 00:12:50,330 --> 00:12:47,700 that consisted of most all reviews no 303 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:50,340 matter what program we we had lunch 304 00:12:56,690 --> 00:12:53,970 together and a staff every day very 305 00:12:59,630 --> 00:12:56,700 interesting very interesting individual 306 00:13:01,940 --> 00:12:59,640 to be around whether a social standpoint 307 00:13:04,370 --> 00:13:01,950 or technical standpoint so yeah I had 308 00:13:07,130 --> 00:13:04,380 more more direct contact with him on a 309 00:13:10,130 --> 00:13:07,140 daily basis afternoon from between 1969 310 00:13:11,870 --> 00:13:10,140 and 1970 when he left if you ever met 311 00:13:14,980 --> 00:13:11,880 had an opportunity medium he had a a lot 312 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:14,990 of charisma very intelligent person very 313 00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:18,930 eager to to expand his own knowledge of 314 00:13:24,530 --> 00:13:21,690 whatever I mean if it had been any any 315 00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:24,540 association with science he was he was 316 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:26,310 totally open to the discussion he 317 00:13:33,140 --> 00:13:30,510 enjoyed trying on new ideas to to his 318 00:13:36,050 --> 00:13:33,150 immediate staff and and getting their 319 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:36,060 and their input there's there is a 320 00:13:40,850 --> 00:13:38,730 obviously you can see how different 321 00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:40,860 people lead and I would put him in the 322 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:42,240 lead if you want to make a distinction 323 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:43,650 between the leader and manager he was 324 00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:46,650 clearly a leader he probably didn't 325 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:48,720 always make all the the right decision 326 00:13:54,650 --> 00:13:51,570 he wasn't always right but his process 327 00:13:57,290 --> 00:13:54,660 of bringing to himself two of the system 328 00:14:00,350 --> 00:13:57,300 to a decision was such that he made the 329 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:00,360 right decision and he did that by by 330 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:01,890 making people feel comfortable whether 331 00:14:05,150 --> 00:14:04,770 you were my first meeting with him I was 332 00:14:55,579 --> 00:14:05,160 a 333 00:14:58,910 --> 00:14:55,589 bringing out the best in those 334 00:15:01,280 --> 00:14:58,920 individuals and and doing it in a very 335 00:15:03,259 --> 00:15:01,290 common nice way I don't know I never 336 00:15:09,559 --> 00:15:03,269 I've never been it was around him where 337 00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:13,769 now that that comes with with maturity 338 00:15:22,350 --> 00:15:18,399 and that comes with with recognition of 339 00:15:26,549 --> 00:15:22,360 the of what space can do for you at that 340 00:15:29,609 --> 00:15:26,559 time we weren't recognizing the benefits 341 00:15:31,769 --> 00:15:29,619 of of being in space from an earth 342 00:15:33,449 --> 00:15:31,779 observation standpoint environmental 343 00:15:35,579 --> 00:15:33,459 standpoint we weren't recognizing the 344 00:15:37,949 --> 00:15:35,589 benefits of microgravity research we 345 00:15:40,290 --> 00:15:37,959 weren't recognizing the benefits of of 346 00:15:41,639 --> 00:15:40,300 weather satellite so we weren't 347 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:41,649 recognizing the benefits of 348 00:15:46,199 --> 00:15:44,410 communication now so but we did have 349 00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:46,209 recognized the objective of getting to 350 00:15:50,939 --> 00:15:48,639 the moon a lot of people you know from 351 00:15:52,590 --> 00:15:50,949 didn't really question that maybe some 352 00:15:54,059 --> 00:15:52,600 of the science people did you're not 353 00:15:55,650 --> 00:15:54,069 really gonna get that much science out 354 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:55,660 of going to the moon I pick up gather a 355 00:15:59,549 --> 00:15:57,610 few rocks and come back that wasn't the 356 00:16:02,069 --> 00:15:59,559 objective the objective was to be able 357 00:16:05,369 --> 00:16:02,079 to get to the moon and back and that fit 358 00:16:08,819 --> 00:16:05,379 very well into the the administration's 359 00:16:11,129 --> 00:16:08,829 plans for for attacking the Cold War and 360 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:11,139 there's no question about that so it was 361 00:16:14,369 --> 00:16:12,850 a different objective the Congress 362 00:16:17,189 --> 00:16:14,379 didn't question it because it was a good 363 00:16:18,749 --> 00:16:17,199 good a good objective the science says 364 00:16:21,929 --> 00:16:18,759 didn't didn't question because they 365 00:16:24,419 --> 00:16:21,939 really didn't have enough science 366 00:16:26,669 --> 00:16:24,429 objectives to to spend as much money for 367 00:16:27,869 --> 00:16:26,679 instance as we in space as we had spent 368 00:16:29,340 --> 00:16:27,879 on the Apollo program so we're a 369 00:16:31,650 --> 00:16:29,350 different set of objectives now what we 370 00:16:33,419 --> 00:16:31,660 prove to the world one way I think it 371 00:16:35,819 --> 00:16:33,429 went a long way to winning the Cold War 372 00:16:38,309 --> 00:16:35,829 but also approved is the if what we can 373 00:16:40,139 --> 00:16:38,319 do in space that then brought into to 374 00:16:41,609 --> 00:16:40,149 other other disciplines other other 375 00:16:43,379 --> 00:16:41,619 things to be able to and that's what 376 00:16:46,410 --> 00:16:43,389 we're faced with today it's not a bad 377 00:16:48,629 --> 00:16:46,420 deal we've now said that improving to 378 00:16:51,059 --> 00:16:48,639 ourselves at space can benefit a lot of 379 00:16:53,189 --> 00:16:51,069 things therefore you diversify when you 380 00:16:55,919 --> 00:16:53,199 diversify you don't have the single 381 00:16:58,079 --> 00:16:55,929 objective as we've had before we do more 382 00:16:59,669 --> 00:16:58,089 much more today in space than we did in 383 00:17:00,929 --> 00:16:59,679 the Apollo days from a science 384 00:17:02,309 --> 00:17:00,939 standpoint from an environmental 385 00:17:05,010 --> 00:17:02,319 standpoint from an application 386 00:17:07,380 --> 00:17:05,020 standpoint so it's a that goes with the 387 00:17:09,269 --> 00:17:07,390 territory we've proven the benefits of a 388 00:17:11,490 --> 00:17:09,279 and it's going to increase even more so 389 00:17:14,130 --> 00:17:11,500 the versification comes with it with a 390 00:17:15,659 --> 00:17:14,140 territory and and and I think that's 391 00:17:17,879 --> 00:17:15,669 good for the country we've opened up a 392 00:17:19,889 --> 00:17:17,889 new frontier it's a new territory it's 393 00:17:22,279 --> 00:17:19,899 it's and I don't think we found all the 394 00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:22,289 the benefits of this yet 395 00:17:26,360 --> 00:17:24,750 once we get more into more learn more 396 00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:26,370 about the planetary system the the 397 00:17:30,049 --> 00:17:28,350 Hubble telescope you're going to find 398 00:17:31,580 --> 00:17:30,059 more and more things too that need to be 399 00:17:34,070 --> 00:17:31,590 explored and then I think it's going to 400 00:17:35,330 --> 00:17:34,080 even diversify more so it's that just 401 00:17:38,750 --> 00:17:35,340 happens and I think it's a good thing 402 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:38,760 for space I I don't see I think the 403 00:17:43,250 --> 00:17:41,370 Apollo satisfied part of that objective 404 00:17:46,549 --> 00:17:43,260 I think rose to where we are prove it we 405 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:46,559 can do things and and now we need to do 406 00:17:51,799 --> 00:17:49,250 with the for the limited budgets we have 407 00:17:54,049 --> 00:17:51,809 we need to be fiscally responsible and 408 00:17:56,690 --> 00:17:54,059 we need to ensure that we are in fact 409 00:18:03,050 --> 00:17:56,700 getting more as much a return on our 410 00:18:08,420 --> 00:18:05,290 and a lot of respect it would have been 411 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:08,430 it went a lot easier we would have been 412 00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:10,890 able to do a lot of computations a lot 413 00:18:15,050 --> 00:18:13,110 faster we'd have been able to do a lot 414 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:15,060 more analysis and maybe in some cases 415 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:16,770 less tests 416 00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:18,690 we might even been able to do the near 417 00:18:24,860 --> 00:18:21,510 do the program faster I might haven't 418 00:18:28,250 --> 00:18:24,870 been able to get to the to the moon 419 00:18:30,170 --> 00:18:28,260 before 1969 I'm not sure that's the case 420 00:18:31,490 --> 00:18:30,180 though because they were still there's 421 00:18:33,140 --> 00:18:31,500 certain things that you have to do you 422 00:18:34,430 --> 00:18:33,150 have to build hardware you have to get 423 00:18:37,670 --> 00:18:34,440 you're gonna have to test it you're 424 00:18:41,150 --> 00:18:37,680 gonna have to have to launch it I would 425 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:41,160 say that the we would have maybe more 426 00:18:45,380 --> 00:18:43,050 confidence and I don't know how to have 427 00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:45,390 to judge this whether how much lack of 428 00:18:50,750 --> 00:18:49,080 confidence if people had in in our 429 00:18:52,700 --> 00:18:50,760 ability to be able to to accomplish 430 00:18:54,620 --> 00:18:52,710 submission but there would have been 431 00:18:56,570 --> 00:18:54,630 more confidence I think and Advanta days 432 00:18:58,730 --> 00:18:56,580 environment and having that that 433 00:19:02,300 --> 00:18:58,740 computational capability the other thing 434 00:19:05,660 --> 00:19:02,310 that that you learn to do is is 435 00:19:08,930 --> 00:19:05,670 communicate know where you we don't have 436 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:08,940 fax machines which you you learn to to 437 00:19:13,090 --> 00:19:11,730 talk to have confidence first off that 438 00:19:16,130 --> 00:19:13,100 was another thing about the program 439 00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:16,140 everybody pretty well knew everybody in 440 00:19:20,810 --> 00:19:18,080 the program who had a who had a 441 00:19:22,850 --> 00:19:20,820 responsibility or who's who had an 442 00:19:24,530 --> 00:19:22,860 expertise um it's it was a big program 443 00:19:25,940 --> 00:19:24,540 but it's somehow that that you 444 00:19:27,590 --> 00:19:25,950 recognized that you regularly were 445 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:27,600 people were identified on who had the 446 00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:29,970 knowledge in that and at which group was 447 00:19:33,740 --> 00:19:32,220 it was hell responsible and and there 448 00:19:35,990 --> 00:19:33,750 they felt respond even to be told they 449 00:19:37,330 --> 00:19:36,000 felt response like something about brown 450 00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:37,340 used to talk about its automatic 451 00:19:42,050 --> 00:19:39,360 responsibility that means everybody in 452 00:19:43,580 --> 00:19:42,060 the system has responsibility to if they 453 00:19:45,380 --> 00:19:43,590 see something wrong or something needs 454 00:19:47,420 --> 00:19:45,390 to be done or corrected they have 455 00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:47,430 responsibility to bring that to the 456 00:19:52,130 --> 00:19:50,400 attention of you take care of themselves 457 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:52,140 or bring to the attention of someone who 458 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:54,330 can you learn to trust people there was 459 00:20:00,980 --> 00:19:57,210 a lot of trust in them when you say give 460 00:20:04,580 --> 00:20:00,990 a person information over the phone then 461 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:04,590 and it's critical to the launch then the 462 00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:06,570 there was a come a personal thing you 463 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:08,640 understood you accepted that you didn't 464 00:20:15,290 --> 00:20:11,730 have to have it you know fifty 465 00:20:16,910 --> 00:20:15,300 signatures on every document that that 466 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:16,920 process came only later 467 00:20:20,810 --> 00:20:18,930 it came after the Challenger by the way 468 00:20:23,150 --> 00:20:20,820 we didn't have to have all you had to 469 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:23,160 have maybe one or two signatures but you 470 00:20:26,060 --> 00:20:24,330 didn't have to have hundreds of so 471 00:20:28,550 --> 00:20:26,070 everybody in the system didn't have to 472 00:20:30,860 --> 00:20:28,560 sign up you if the man said it's it's 473 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:30,870 ready to go have confidence in this you 474 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:32,970 believed it and because he believed it 475 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:34,410 and because he did his job he was 476 00:20:38,660 --> 00:20:36,090 everybody had the same objective 477 00:20:40,730 --> 00:20:38,670 nobody had any objective to to get away 478 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:40,740 with anything or to to circumvent the 479 00:20:44,450 --> 00:20:42,450 system and to be able to do anything 480 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:44,460 unsafe is not that didn't factor in 481 00:20:53,670 --> 00:20:46,290 everybody had the same objective to get 482 00:21:01,260 --> 00:20:58,380 the disadvantages of the Apollo in the 483 00:21:04,020 --> 00:21:01,270 Apollo era is that we we did in fact get 484 00:21:07,530 --> 00:21:04,030 ourselves as an agency so engrossed in 485 00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:07,540 the and the Apollo program that we we 486 00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:11,440 fail to to focus and they in the later 487 00:21:16,350 --> 00:21:13,750 part of the program or in the mid part 488 00:21:18,540 --> 00:21:16,360 on where we were going to go from there 489 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:18,550 no new programs they've mentioned the 490 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:21,490 Skylab was little after the fact almost 491 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:25,510 that it was recognized we had this very 492 00:21:31,260 --> 00:21:29,170 competent agency focused on in unmanned 493 00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:31,270 systems the best in the world with the 494 00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:34,480 industrial team and yet we were going to 495 00:21:39,020 --> 00:21:36,130 we were going to finish the Apollo one 496 00:21:41,490 --> 00:21:39,030 day and and we didn't have any programs 497 00:21:42,990 --> 00:21:41,500 plan that would would keep that 498 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:43,000 infrastructure in place keep that 499 00:21:48,810 --> 00:21:44,890 capability in place and that's how the 500 00:21:50,940 --> 00:21:48,820 the Skylab evolved it was it was built 501 00:21:53,190 --> 00:21:50,950 on utilization as you know of Apollo 502 00:21:54,390 --> 00:21:53,200 equipment but that was a program in fact 503 00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:54,400 it turned out to be a this country's 504 00:21:59,670 --> 00:21:56,110 first space station and a very good one 505 00:22:01,380 --> 00:21:59,680 but it also kept kept the the agency 506 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:01,390 together kept the technical competence 507 00:22:05,580 --> 00:22:03,610 there we did have to go through quite a 508 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:05,590 reduction in not only in the agency but 509 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:07,330 in the and industrial community which 510 00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:09,250 said I didn't think was good but at 511 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:11,230 least we we kept the program going there 512 00:22:16,410 --> 00:22:13,930 the Apollo Soyuz was another one that 513 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:16,420 was the first cooperation with the with 514 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:18,730 with the Russians that wasn't exactly a 515 00:22:24,030 --> 00:22:22,330 lot of a big deal as far as a drawing 516 00:22:28,350 --> 00:22:24,040 board kind of thing it was more of 517 00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:28,360 sending up astronauts with the with the 518 00:22:34,980 --> 00:22:32,110 the Apollo Hardware to be able to to to 519 00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:34,990 mate with the Soyuz and the Russians the 520 00:22:42,270 --> 00:22:39,070 he was in that time it we were we were 521 00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:42,280 focusing pretty much on the on the 522 00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:46,710 shuttle it was in 1969 that even 523 00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:49,390 President Nixon recognized that there 524 00:22:54,660 --> 00:22:52,000 had to be some some type of a policy 525 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:54,670 someplace for the for the country to go 526 00:23:00,450 --> 00:22:57,730 after Apollo and he set up a space space 527 00:23:02,340 --> 00:23:00,460 task group and that that space task 528 00:23:04,830 --> 00:23:02,350 group was headed by then vice president 529 00:23:06,140 --> 00:23:04,840 Agnew and I there were four points that 530 00:23:09,170 --> 00:23:06,150 came out of that I don't remember 531 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:09,180 for him but two of them were to one 532 00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:10,770 internet I don't know what this right 533 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:12,720 order but internationalized space was 534 00:23:19,130 --> 00:23:15,450 one and the other was to develop a 535 00:23:21,650 --> 00:23:19,140 reusable system it was obvious it to the 536 00:23:23,690 --> 00:23:21,660 world that a reusable system should be 537 00:23:25,010 --> 00:23:23,700 cheaper and should be more operable and 538 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:25,020 you wouldn't have to throw all that 539 00:23:30,260 --> 00:23:28,410 Hardware away and and two things that 540 00:23:32,930 --> 00:23:30,270 came out of that in that time period was 541 00:23:35,540 --> 00:23:32,940 was the shuttle and that that's a 542 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:35,550 reusable system and we were working in 543 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:38,570 earnest Sunday on the shuttle in 544 00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:41,490 parallel with this for years we had been 545 00:23:45,170 --> 00:23:43,110 working on a space station and the 546 00:23:48,890 --> 00:23:45,180 agency had to decide which direction to 547 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:48,900 go reusable system our space station and 548 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:50,490 it was concluded that if we built a 549 00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:52,530 reusable system then it would be good 550 00:23:56,210 --> 00:23:54,240 for ultimately building a space station 551 00:23:58,390 --> 00:23:56,220 it was just where we're going today 552 00:24:00,590 --> 00:23:58,400 and so those those two things were 553 00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:00,600 prevalent on the on the drawing board 554 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:02,880 one with space transportation and a man 555 00:24:09,410 --> 00:24:06,090 system standpoint we had that we were 556 00:24:11,660 --> 00:24:09,420 working on that time the the plans for 557 00:24:13,340 --> 00:24:11,670 the Hubble telescope which is up now 558 00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:13,350 that was that that work was done here at 559 00:24:16,670 --> 00:24:14,640 the Marshall Space Flight Center the 560 00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:16,680 early concept definition and the detail 561 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:19,710 definition was done that done here from 562 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:22,050 an international standpoint to be able 563 00:24:28,610 --> 00:24:24,570 to to bring the Europeans in to the end 564 00:24:31,850 --> 00:24:28,620 of the man fold if you will and into the 565 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:31,860 reusable era of the of the shuttle we 566 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:35,490 established the what later became the 567 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:37,410 Space Lab program it started out as a 568 00:24:41,930 --> 00:24:40,170 the sortie can that that work was done 569 00:24:42,980 --> 00:24:41,940 here the early design definition was 570 00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:42,990 down here at the Marshall Space Flight 571 00:24:48,290 --> 00:24:45,000 Center in fact I had the benefit of 572 00:24:50,660 --> 00:24:48,300 imagine that task team in the 1972 time 573 00:24:54,410 --> 00:24:50,670 period and I became a program manager 574 00:24:55,790 --> 00:24:54,420 for the space station space lab in 1973 575 00:25:00,050 --> 00:24:55,800 that was an international cooperative 576 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:00,060 program between the ten European 577 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:02,010 countries and and NASA which we took the 578 00:25:06,170 --> 00:25:04,530 lead in here that International 579 00:25:07,550 --> 00:25:06,180 Corporation has continued that was the 580 00:25:08,750 --> 00:25:07,560 first of the real international man 581 00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:08,760 programs today 582 00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:11,520 the space station is much broader over 583 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:13,260 the international cooperation there's 584 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:16,050 always been since I can remember an 585 00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:17,970 international cooperation between the 586 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:19,980 science community you don't hear a lot 587 00:25:25,159 --> 00:25:22,730 about that because it's in the form of a 588 00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:25,169 different kind of satellites and science 589 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:28,080 it's not quite as well publicized as as 590 00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:30,210 a joint mission between the United 591 00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:31,679 States and the Russians or what-have-you 592 00:25:35,210 --> 00:25:33,390 but those are the kind of things are on 593 00:25:36,919 --> 00:25:35,220 the drawing board at that time and most 594 00:25:39,230 --> 00:25:36,929 of them came into fruition now the 595 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:39,240 problem is we we didn't have enough of 596 00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:41,850 the detail on the drawing board I think 597 00:25:46,039 --> 00:25:43,440 soon enough and I think that hurt us 598 00:25:48,169 --> 00:25:46,049 after the Apollo program was a status 599 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:48,179 quo of NASA if you will after the Apollo 600 00:25:53,299 --> 00:25:50,850 if you see what happened and do that so 601 00:25:55,159 --> 00:25:53,309 it's a the the the direction could have 602 00:25:57,380 --> 00:25:55,169 been and I think people like von Braun 603 00:26:00,020 --> 00:25:57,390 and a few other people in the space 604 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:00,030 business would have liked to have said 605 00:26:04,430 --> 00:26:02,130 okay we finish this objective we'll put 606 00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:04,440 the man on the moon return him now let's 607 00:26:08,150 --> 00:26:05,910 do it for Mars I think there would have 608 00:26:09,740 --> 00:26:08,160 been a if you were interviewed probably 609 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:09,750 his was interview at that time which you 610 00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:10,890 get to talk to him today he would 611 00:26:16,340 --> 00:26:13,710 probably say that would be an objective 612 00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:16,350 I think realism though that that the 613 00:26:21,230 --> 00:26:18,870 country wasn't in a position to to go 614 00:26:24,020 --> 00:26:21,240 forward with that at that time was was 615 00:26:25,340 --> 00:26:24,030 probably also recognized so there were 616 00:26:27,919 --> 00:26:25,350 never any I don't think any really 617 00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:27,929 serious consideration to to do any more